Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders.

NR7J · Post by **NR7J** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:52 am

Sellers be careful when using Paypal.
If you send a radio to someone, that someone can swap parts (finals, knobs, whatever) then he will file a claim with Paypal that the radio doesn't work and Paypal will place your money back into the buyer's account while they investigate.
Sooner or later it will happen to you too. You'll see.

After 800+ transactions I'm done dealing with Paypal.

KE3W · Post by **KE3W** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:58 am

How about providing more detailed information...

1. Who was the "scumbag?"
2. What did you sell the "scumbag?"
3. What did PayPal actually say they were going to do?
4. What "proof" does PayPal require to put this puppy to bed?

More information would be more beneficial then a blanket statement about PayPal (considering you had 800+ good transactions?)

BTW - Just making this statement about the "scumbag" helps no one - heck, I might be the "scumbag's" next "mark" since you didn't identify that bum.

lhk0pd · Post by **lhk0pd** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:38 pm

Yes it would be helpful to the Ham community to know who the scum bag is. There are always two sides to a story not that i'm saying your wrong but the accused has no chance to defend him self either,so give us a name a call.

N4ATS · Post by **N4ATS** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:13 pm

Personal Check ALL THE WAY..... Once it clears , its over. If it bounces , it will be the best $25 you ever spend...

Money Orders are SO easy to make as well as bank checks,

Personal checks are 100% safe...

You can even "ask" your bank to do a "funds check" before you deposit it, I do it all the time...

Get a check , wait utill it clears , send the gear. OVER....

k4kk · Post by **k4kk** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:17 pm

N4ATS wrote:Personal Check ALL THE WAY..... Once it clears , its over. If it bounces , it will be the best $25 you ever spend...

Money Orders are SO easy to make as well as bank checks,

Personal checks are 100% safe...

You can even "ask" your bank to do a "funds check" before you deposit it, I do it all the time...

Get a check , wait utill it clears , send the gear. OVER....

AMEN!
As a purchaser, I have no problem with the seller clearing my check. It costs neither of us any "fees" and provides a legal obligation to deliver both goods and funds.

KE3W · Post by **KE3W** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:19 pm

You guy's (and gals) have more patience then I do! I get so darn excited about buying a new "toy" that I just don't want to wait a week for my check to clear! Heck, I have paid a few dollars more for an item because they took PayPal and I got my toy a week sooner. I know - I should just relax!

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:06 am

I won't buy anything from anyone I do not know UNLESS they accept Paypal.
Be very wary of any seller refusing to take Paypal . I know of several very unsavory sellers who a quite vociferous regardinf their dislike for Paypal .

Just take a look at all of the people right here who have benn cheated VIA Postal Money Order ! Personal checks...same risk .

It isn't a perfect world but Paypal is a who;e lot safer !

NR7J · Post by **NR7J** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:33 am

Be very wary of any buyer wanting to use Paypal.

Of course not all but some will take this opportunity to swap parts, board or even the entire radio and let me tell you again, you will end up with a broken radio and the buyer will get a refund.

Sooner or later it will happen to you too.

N4ATS · Post by **N4ATS** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:34 pm

The problem with Paypal...

Number one , I will not use anything that eBay empires and makes money on each time I use it.

Number two , I sent a guy a perfect working radio , MINT , he got it blew it up the same day and filed with eBay. They took the money RIGHT BACK out of my account and I got the radio back NON WORKING.

Number three , Patience is the name of the game, if you can't wait 3 days until a check clears , buy it somewhere else.

I ended my Paypal friendship with eBay , now after some 1,000 things sold over the years and using personal checks , NEVER have I been ripped NOR the buyer!

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:54 pm

NR7J wrote:Be very wary of any buyer wanting to use Paypal.

Of course not all but some will take this opportunity to swap parts, board or even the entire radio and let me tell you again, you will end up with a broken radio and the buyer will get a refund.

Sooner or later it will happen to you too.

I am very happy that when I had occasion to deal with folks like N3DG that I had indeed used Paypal. There have been other occasions where Paypal has come thru for me .

There is no real , perfect system yet. Comparing the successful scams using checks and money orders that are reported here on QTH to the would be scams that Paypal has foiled makes Paypal my first choice.

Over 1000 transactions and Paypal has worked very well. Scammers hate it . That gives me a lot of reason to like it.

If , by odd chance I bump into the rare , REAL parts swapping buyer I can shrug it off as Paypal has already done quite well for me,

In fact , I paid for a Ranger 3 weeks ago and the seller dropped off the planet. Had I used a money order it would be a real chore to get the funds back from this would be thief in Georgia. Paypal makes it all a lot safer.

I might add that I have seen the old ?that is not what I sent "defense before. It is a real shame when that really happens . I saw that defense used against a good friend and was able to verify that it was not at all true.

Sorry that it happened to ypu. It may happen to me but , I can handle it....... All a part of agreeing to allow a third party to settle disagreements.

Again, not a perfect world. But Paypal has thwarted many scammers , money orders are scammers best fiends .

NR7J · Post by **NR7J** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:11 pm

It's going to happen outside eBay too. * Sellers beware using Paypal *

N4ATS wrote:The problem with Paypal...

Number one , I will not use anything that eBay empires and makes money on each time I use it.

Number two , I sent a guy a perfect working radio , MINT , he got it blew it up the same day and filed with eBay. They took the money RIGHT BACK out of my account and I got the radio back NON WORKING.

Number three , Patience is the name of the game, if you can't wait 3 days until a check clears , buy it somewhere else.

I ended my Paypal friendship with eBay , now after some 1,000 things sold over the years and using personal checks , NEVER have I been ripped NOR the buyer!

N3JQD · Post by **N3JQD** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:56 pm

I agree with not using Paypal. The same thing happened to me, i.e. scammed. Paypal immediately believes the purchaser and not the seller. It's difficult to enter a verbal dialog with either Paypal / Ebay. All it takes for the purchaser is to make any claim, whether bogus or not, to Paypal and they freeze your funds or you'll have a negative balance. I use QTH and QRZ and have never had a problem. Everyone that I had dealt with has been honest and an enthusiastic ham. What I do when I'm ready to make a purchase is ask for the seller's phone number. You can tell a lot by how someone speaks on the phone or how receptive they are to taking your call. Once you've engaged in conversation you can usually tell how anxious they are to ship your new toy. In some cases they have sent a radio before they received my funds. I typically FedEx a USPS M/O to the seller and they are happy to ship immediately. Paypal/Ebay are

Bob N3JQD

KE3W · Post by **KE3W** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:56 am

Wow NR7J, N4ATS, K4KKN4ATS, K4KK, N3JQD and N3JQD. One would think that every single PayPal purchase ends up in lost money, returned equipment, etc. Why should I "gamble" on sending a HAM a Money Order or check and then pray that I actually get my merchandise. Anyway, that is the great thing about the ole USA - you can do whatever you want.

Unfortunately, I have passed up (and will continue to pass up) "toys" from HAM's that don't accept PayPal (my choice). It is all a crap shoot these days.

NR7J wrote:Be very wary of any buyer wanting to use Paypal. Of course not all but some will take this opportunity to swap parts, board or even the entire radio and let me tell you again, you will end up with a broken radio and the buyer will get a refund. Sooner or later it will happen to you too.

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:45 am

Yep, two sides to every "story". I have heard/read very similar "not the same radio" type responses from many scammers . The scammer claiming victim status is nothing new. Not saying that is always the case but it happens all too often .

So ,OK we understand the two of you claim to have been scammed as sellers . Got it. Am I going to fire off a $1000 money order today in order to buy something from the same guy that scammed you . ? Or would Paypal be a bit safer ? The fact that you sound not unlike the typical scammer caught in the act only makes dealing with you that much less likely .

I am betting on Paypal. Go ahead , use money orders yourself but others may want to read about the numerous people scammed by the con-man's first choice- money orders . The more someone protests Paypal , the less likely I would be willing to send that person a check or money order. Yes, I would automatically rule out the fraud artist that even suggest the "gift" scheme as well . They made an agreement with Paypal . If they are not honorable enough to stick to that agreement they are not trustworthy enough to deal with IMHO.

AC8IR · Post by **AC8IR** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:40 pm

kg8lb wrote:Yep, two sides to every "story". I have heard/read very similar "not the same radio" type responses from many scammers . The scammer claiming victim status is nothing new. Not saying that is always the case but it does happen all too often .

So ,OK we understand the two of you claim to have been sammed as sellers . Got it. Am I going to fire off a $1000 money order today in order to buy something from the same guy that scammed you . ? Or would Paypal be a bit safer ?

I am betting on Paypal. Go ahead , use money orders yourself but others may want to read about the numerous people scammed by the con-man's first choice- money orders . The more someone protests Paypal , the less likely I would be willing to send that person a check or money order. Yes, I would automatically rule out the fraud artist that even suggest the "gift" scheme as well . They made an agreement with Paypal . If they are not honorable enough to stick to that agreement they are not trustworthy enough to deal with IMHO.

I use PayPal and only PayPal.

If the seller will not take PayPal then I will not buy...it is that simple.
This whiney crap about being ripped off by purchasers is WAY TOO prevalent.

Yes, I am sure it does happen...but that is the risk of doing biz on the net...if the seller is not willing to take the risk then perhaps they should not be offering items over the net.

PayPal will always take the side of the purchaser. Afterall...it was the seller that offered the product and initiated the transaction...The buyer is simply wanting to purchase a product as described...WAY TOO MANY SELLERS are rip-off artists...using clever wording to cover non-working or substandard items.

Then when the buyer files a claim with Pay Pal the seller cries WOLF!!!...I have been screwed!!!...

If you buy items from Ebay...you get what you deserve.

Think about it...If the item is not worthy (or can't ) to be sold on QTH or QRZ...then there is definitely a probelm...otherwords it is junk. People use Ebay as a dumping ground (for the most part) for inoperable or damaged items that are not going to sell on legitimate websites.

How many times have you read "I have no way of testing this item"..."Item sold as is"... and the ever popular 'Absolutely no returns of any kind"... and the "Estate Sale" crap.

These items are rip-offs...junk...scams. Period!!!

Hams know other hams...and they have a multitude of avenues to sell their equipment. If it has to go to Ebay then be prepared to repair it...or junk it...or file a claim with PayPal if the seller takes PayPal...if they don't...RUN!!!! In any case spare me the "alligator tears" of sellers crying about being ripped off from buyers...the opposite scenario is more likely the actual case.

Can't handle the heat???...then don't put your stuff for sale on the net.

Michael
AC8IR

NR7J · Post by **NR7J** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:17 pm

Sell something and then come back to post how it went when the buyer files a
false claim and you get back a broken radio and the buyer gets a refund..
It's so easy to talk crap like you do when you only use Paypal to buy an item.
Like I said, go ahead and sell something using Paypal.

You will see more and more, hams (sellers) not wanting to use Paypal.
This is just the beginning.

kb2crk · Post by **kb2crk** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:33 pm

I have sold plenty of things using paypal and have not had an issue even when a couple of sales were contested by the buyer. in both cases paypal found in my favor after I had shown proof (ie pictures in the ad showing the deficiency the buyer was claiming in one case and radio parts that were sold as is no refunds in the other) the parts i sold were tested and working when shipped but as they were parts and could have been incorrectly installed i had a no refund policy stated in the ad. the other item was a broken (listed as such) collins phone patch that the buyer said was badly scratched and missing a knob. the pictures with the ad showed all of that in detail. CYA is my motto and i have not had an issue with paypal and prefer using it.

lhk0pd · Post by **lhk0pd** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:46 pm

I hate to break your bubble when you said more and more Hams are no longer using Pay Pal. I'm certain for every one who stops another comes in his place. Hams do not even make a speck in the numbers of others using Pay Pal. Your on a crusade because things did not work out for you and that is fine; but most crusades just fade away never to be remembered . Pay pal may not work for every one but neither do Money orders or Checks. The safest transaction is ine done eye ball to eye ball cash exchanged. But most Ham deals are done on the internet it seems like and for me Pay Pal is the safest bet. Of course then there is buying from a recognized dealer also.

N9LCD · Post by **N9LCD** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:41 am

The safest transaction is ine done eye ball to eye ball cash exchanged.

Only if you're experienced in detecting counterfeit currency!

N9LCD

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:20 pm

N9LCD wrote:
The safest transaction is ine done eye ball to eye ball cash exchanged.
Only if you're experienced in detecting counterfeit currency!

N9LCD

Of course that applies when you cash the money orders and checks as well

K4ICL · Post by **K4ICL** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:29 pm

The problem is not PayPal. PayPal is what it is.

One of the problems is most sellers do not take the time learn who they are dealing with, and assume everything is okay.

Two suggestions:

1) Do your homework. Research your prospective buyer as carefully as you would research a seller.

2) Protect yourself:

[a) Take pictures of the stuff you are selling. These will be used in cases of shipping damage, buyer attempted "repairs", etc.

b) Seal the unit. Use a small (tiny!) spot of fingernail polish to "seal" one or two "out of the way" cover screws. This is to reveal any tampering with the "innards" of the rig. [This is a variant of what manufacturers do to combat the same issue! There are many other ways to seal a unit, small labels over a screw head, a strategically placed sticker, etc.]

When you send the rig, attach a notice on top stating that the rig's lids have been sealed and breaking any of the seals automatically avoids any return recourse. [There is no need to take the lids off to see if filters exist, plug in features exist, etc.]

If, later, your buyer turns out to be dishonest, ask him to show proof he did not break the seals on the rig. You will have proof it was sealed. PayPal will accept this. [You remembered to take photos of the seals, too, right?]

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:27 pm

More often the problem is the other way around; Most of the scamming is commited by sellers. Feedback is not enough insurance to trust money orders (Scampal) to protect you.
Many a ham here on QTH has gone rogue seller after receiving a few good feedback ratings.

K4ICL · Post by **K4ICL** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:35 am

My comments were very specific to the topic -- PayPal as a "tool" for scamming -- and were not meant to cover the entire spectrum of the topic of scamming.

Many a ham here on QTH has gone rogue seller after receiving a few good feedback ratings.

Please identify a few of the "many". You have my undivided attention.

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:21 am

Correction: The header says :

Post subject:" Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders"

It is all relative. The scams perpetrated using Paypal compared to the other methods. The OP opines that money orders are "safer" . I do not agree. Read the threads regarding scams and frauds. Money orders are a favorite medium of payment. Furthermore, from all appearances there are far more scams perpetrated by sellers than by buyers. Of course the scamming seller claiming to be the "victim" is nothing new.

The OP here, NR7J has blasted Paypal in numerous threads, dug up old threads and made questionable assertions. In his opening statement for example he claims that Paypal returns funds to the buyer's account while they investigate the case. I have never seen that happen . In the case of an item return; The funds are returned AFTER the investigation and AFTER proof of return delivery .This type of comment could call his own credibility into question.
All of this and he has not identified the real cause of the problem , the claimed "scamming " buyer. That leaves us only with the seller's side of the story , warts and all.

My reply regarding sellers and buyers was a direct, specific response to your "topic specific" comment.

As you say Al, do your homework. I've done my own.

N9LCD · Post by **N9LCD** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:46 pm

The problem is not PayPal. PayPal is what it is.

The problem is the USERS or ABUSERS of PayPal!

There is no absolutely safe payment method. Any payment can be "manipulated" to the disadvantage of a careless or inattentive counter-party!

N9LCD

QTH.COM Swap Chat

Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders.

Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders.

Is my choice not to use Paypal ever again.

Re: Is my choice not to use Paypal ever again.

See ! I'm telling you, it's time to boycott Paypal

avoid paypal

Re: Is my choice not to use Paypal ever again.

Buyer vs Seller

There is nothing wrong with PayPal...

Huh?