Shipping Damage-- who's fault

[JDALEY]

You properly pack a radio, the buyer didnt mention insurance BUT you include it as it makes sense-- you ship the radio, it arrives damaged, the buyer doesnt want to hear anything-- just wants a full refund. How do you handle this?
Do you pursue a claim-- refund the money and HOPE the carrier reimburses you.. tell the buyer too bad--??
WOnder what everyone's opinions are regarding the above
Thanks
Joe N2GBT

[KA0I]

Luckily, I have never been on either end of a deal like this. My feelings are, if the buyer wants the item insured, he needs to ASK for insurance when the item is shipped and pay the fee for the insurance. If the item gets damaged, the buyer will be compensated when, and if, the damage claim is paid. I realize this may result in hard feelings, but that is the way I intend to handle it, no matter which end of the deal I'm on. Just my thoughts...

[jrayneal]

Personally I won't ship anything over about 5 bucks worth without insurance and state so in my ad. I pack as safely as possible but if it does get damaged in shipment the buyer is responsible for filing a claim. I will assist with paperwork in any way I can but in the end it is the buyers responsiblility to file.
Also, one of the last things I do before packing an item is to give it a good check-over to make sure that all is in working order. I have, as I am sure we all have, had items die unnatural deaths just sitting on the shelf so never hurts to hook it up that one last time to make sure.

Jerry KB5PN

[W4DAS]

The first step to avoid damage is to pack the item properly. I have shipped a lot of vintage radios and accessories and rarely had a problem. If the item is more than about 15 pounds, you must use more than peanuts to pack it. Foam end caps work well inside a good cardboard box. Foam corner caps work well inside the second box. Remember that you want the box to give when (not if) the box is dropped. Sacrifice the packing, save the radio.
I always include insurance with any shipment. With UPS it is only $0.35 per hundred dollars of value. If the item is damaged, file a claim immediately. Then be prepared for the guaranteed response from the claim inspector: "It wasn't packed properly." This is almost always their first response. Don't let it stop you. Stick with it and they will usually (not always) pay the claim.

[kj7wk]

Proper packaging is a MUST when shipping equipment. I always use TWO boxes. The equipment is wrapped in Saran Wrap, then put in a box with a minimum of 3 inches of foam peanuts on all sides, top and bottom. Then the first box is put into the second box with a minimum of 3 inches of foam peanuts on all sides between the first and second box.
If all of the seams are sealed on both boxes, it increases the compression strength of a double faced corrugated box by 3 times.
Using this system, I have NEVER lost a piece of equipment shipped either by U.S.P.S. or UPS. or Fed X . The expensive way to ship heavy equipment (Like
Linear Amplifiers) is by Federal Express GROUND. Make sure you specify GROUND, or it will really be expensive.

[kj7wk]

In my previous post, I meant that the LEAST EXPENSIVE way to ship heavy equipment is via Federal Express GROUND.

[KE3GK]

I think that when you ship an item and you insure it, you are the one required to file the claim. If you HOPE that they reimburse you, then you must also feel that way about HOPING that they reimburse the buyer. But I think it is your responsibility. (not sure though).

Anyway, insurance is meant to cover a working item against damage. It is not meant to cover a broken item where one can try to blame UPS or whoever, into getting some money back and/or sticking the item with the buyer. Not saying you did this, but I have seen this on ebay one too many times.

On the other hand, it is very convenient for the buyer to get it, be fumbled fingered, drop the rig, bust it up, then claim UPS delivered it that way. The buyer needs to take note of the package when they receive it if they can and let the delivery person know about it too. Not saying the buyer did this either ...

What I would do Joe, is to have the buyer send the item back to you (at his cost), and then you refund his money once it is received. Then you take the insurance up with whoever you shipped it with. I think this is fair for all. Or ... if he will let you submit a claim and when and if you get claim damage monies, then send it to him. But he should agree, that if, after they investigate it, and you don't get money, then he is stuck with it.

What kind of damage happened ? Was the box crushed ? Was there physical damage ?

Tom KE3GK

[NI4L]

I found out Real fast . Only took me one Time trying to get a claim from UPS.
I take Pictures of everything. If the item Works i take a good pic of it working, If it is someother peice of gear... I make sure it is pictured from several different angles.
I leave nothing for chance. Those Guys are not gonna try and rip me for something they ran over with a Fork LIft or Dropped Kicked it across the Loading Dock into the next truck... YES I SAW THAT DONE Kernersville NC !
I take pics of the packing process and the finished Box ready to ship.
I know it seems extreme, But i was able to make a claim on a damaged radio and because i had the pics to back me up they paid instead of the Usual, put you off hope you will disapear act.
I know not everyone has a digital Camera but as cheap as they are now at the Walmarts 30.00 it is a good investment . It can make or break a Claim! Alway remember Its better to Over pack than UnderPack. Double Box and bubble wrap your items. And make sure you Put insurance on it Give the guy a Chance, If he is stupid enough not to have you Put it on the item Then if he ends up with a box of rattling junk IT IS HIS FAULT.....At least you gave him the option.

[JDALEY]

The radio I sold was packaged by mailbox etc and I used the same packing method-- the radio was suspended with all corners protected as with top and bottom with cardboard. The buyer is shiping the radio back to me and I'm gonna submit a claim. He never mentioned insurance when he bought it but I got it anyway. I have pics of the radio before it was shipped-- never did a UPS claim but i'm not looking forward to it. I ship ALOT of radios and NEVER had a problem until now. I guess a buyer-- if he didnt like the radio-- could destroy it then insist on his money back. I feel since it was packed well, and made it from calif to florida-- it should make it from florida to NC safely. Not sure how to handle this one but I still feel I cant be responsible if UPS damages something, and if they DONT honor a shipping claim it gets messy-- why should I eat the radio-- then again-- why should the buyer. This really sucks.
I always try to do the right thing-- but not sure on this one WHAT the right thing is.
JOe N2GBT

[KE3GK]

Joe, I think that you are handling this correctly.

You may have to eat this, (hopefully not) but for all the future sales that you will undoubtably have, your intergrity remains solid.

[Mathew Quaife]

You properly pack a radio, the buyer didnt mention insurance BUT you include it as it makes sense-- you ship the radio, it arrives damaged, the buyer doesnt want to hear anything-- just wants a full refund. How do you handle this?
Do you pursue a claim-- refund the money and HOPE the carrier reimburses you.. tell the buyer too bad--??
WOnder what everyone's opinions are regarding the above
Thanks
Joe N2GBT

Ok, here it is, look at my post found in shipping and read, Have the buyer pay for the cost of the shipping with his own credit card, or if he has an account with a shipping company. Then when a claim is needed, the buyer can handle everything from his end. Yes this is possible, or you as the seller if you pay for the shipping can submit a letter in writing giving full rights to the buyer. Also another note, lets say I ship an item from Staples, and it is insured, guess who gets to file the claim, and gets the insurance check, STAPLES, cause they paid for it. You paid them, they paid UPS. SO hope this helps everyone. I know, I just went through it, and I'm stubborn headed, I spent the time on the phone, learning all of this after a package arrived with a badly damaged radio.

Mathew
KA9VOI

[K4ICL]

Joe:

It is noteworthy that you had the radio packed by Mailbox Inc. That chain is now owned by UPS. This means that UPS did the packing. Since you had insurance, UPS is liable for payment of the damage. They can not come back and say that any bad packing was your fault.

I would NOT take the radio back and refund to the buyer. YOU are not the one that is responsible; you took all reasonable caution, including paying for the insurance the buyer did not request. Why should you take a loss that is not your fault?

When we buy a item and have it shipped, we, the buyer, assumes the risk of the item being damaged by a carrier. Your buyer took that risk when he asked you to ship it to him. Again, it should not be your loss.

In my opinion, your only responsibility to the buyer is to do your best to secure a fair settlement for the damage caused by UPS. You will need pictures of the damage and a detailed description of the damage; something your buyer MUST furnish.

Being the buyers agent in getting a settlement is a hassle but it is the right thing to do. The buyer still has options, including taking UPS to court; they DID insure it.

[vu2iti]

I am from India. Years ago, I had a deal with a HAM in CA, USA. - a Tempo one trx with PS. I requested him to pack the item carefully in a double carton to avoid damage. It was a ground shipping and when I received the item, It was a sad scene inside-all the tubes were broken, case was bent and twisted, all transformers were came out after breaking its terminals and so on. All those things were happened only beacuse of the very very poor packing. He had packed the tempo one in an ordinary paper carton without any packing material inside!
When I contacted the sender he simply said. " you claim the insurance. I will send you the papers". I never get a reimbursement from insurance company.
What I want ti say is that Insuring the parcel is not an alternate for better packing!

[KA9FOX]

You should post the name and callsign of this person in the FEEDBACK FORUM. Let others know that this person does not package things correctly. Just state the facts.

[k5yy]

Well, the issue of denying a claim may be solved somewhat by fact that UPS and now Fed Ex have been requiring the package to be OPEN at the counter if insurance is over $300-500 or so. Then they inspect the packing and you reseal right under their noses. Then you can state "the counter agent" inspected it, they have no proof he/she did not, since they are supposed to by matter of policy. Helps to state that fact. I pack like a battleship and have never had a claim against me in 30 yrs. Maybe I am lucky that something has not been dropped or "fork lifted".. San k5yy

[WB1FRW]

First off I will say I have shipped over several thousand items through UPS carrier. I always insure for the full value of the item.

Second I would say if and I must repeat the ( if part ) you have packed the item correctly UPS should settle your claim.

Unfortunately I had a recent incident as I will be describing here.

I sent an accuratly described radio, I would say about an 8 out of 10 which was described to the purchaser. The radio was sent out in good working condition an 82 LB package, double boxed, very oversize, packed extremely well. UPS beat the smitherines out of it.

IF YOU ARE THE RECEIVER AND THERE IS DAMAGE ( KEEP ((( all ))) packing ))) including the outer box if double boxed. In my case the receiver threw out the outer box and packing material and immediately started DEMANDING A REFUND FROM ME. Even with all his accusations and fact that he threw out the outer box and packing materials I still filed a claim for him with all the other accusation of which were not true. He claims the Dow key relay I sent alon also didn't work. Well HELLO again make yourself another cup of coffee. I received it back here . I guess this fellow was lazy also. I put a cord to it and plugged it in and it does work FINE !

OK let me tell you what happened next. FIRST OFF again who does the purchaser immediately blame with out an FACT finding, of course you the shipper because he paid you. HELLO please have a cup of coffee and wake up. If the radio left in good condition the CARRIER IS AT FAULT considering you have carefully packed and insured the item. SO if you are on the receiving end of a purchase and its broke PLEASE DON'T IMMEDIATLY BLAME THE SENDER ! I recently had this done to me. I will not mention his name. He knows who he is. I hope he has a conscience but from my dealings with him I tend to dought it !

HE IMMEDIATLY DEMANDS HIS MONEY BACK ! LET ME TELL YOU. THIS IS NOT HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS. IF PROPERLY PACKED AND INSURED AND THE THE CARRIER BREAKS IT. IF YOU HAVE PROPERLY INSURED THE CARRIER IS RESPONSIBLE ! Of course you shipper is responsible for FILING the claim. With that said 73 and Good Luck .

One final word . I have sent 1000's of packages and have only had to file about 3 claims due to Carrier mishandling !

[K6LVD]

I fight this battle all of the time on the Ebay packing and shipping board.

The LAW says that the seller is responsible for tendering the item at the seller's place of business or residence if he has none. If the seller is required , or authorized , to ship the goods, BARRING OTHER AGREEMENT, the delivery of the goods is accomplished when the goods are placed into the hands of the carrier. The item must be properly boxed and a proper shipping contract made, and the buyer notified of the shipment.

Now the problem comes into play when the buyer gets the box!

If the box is damaged the buyer must open it , in the presence of the delivery person, and if damaged note all of the damage and have the delivery person sign for the damage. MOST BUYERS DO NOT KNOW THIS.

The seller is never responsible for damage caused by the carrier, UNLESS THE SELLER HAS STATED THAT THE SELLER WILL BE RESPONSIBLE UNTIL THE ITEM IS IN THE BUYER'S HANDS. If the seller does that then the seller is responsible.

NEVER HAVE THE BUYER SEND THE ITEM BACK TO YOU , unless you have a previous agreement that you will accept returns if not satisfactory.

If the item is damaged through improper packaging that is NOT carrier damage, and IS negligence by the seller. However, it is difficult to get the seller to do anything or refund any money in that case.

If the buyer has USED the item, the buyer has ACCEPTED the item, and insurance will not cover the damage. If the buyer does not have the packaging the insurance will not NORMALLY pay the claim.

UPS will normally pickup a valid damage claim and return it to the seller, IF THE VALUE IS HIGH ENOUGH FOR THE SELLER TO MITIGATE THE LOSS, BY RESELLING OR SALVAGING THE PART.

When you ship a valuable item , insure it, notify the buyer that the buyer must inspect the item when recieved, and report damage to the carrier, AND SAVE ALL OF THE PACKAGING FOR THE CARRIER'S INSPECTION

Jack