QTH.COM Swap Chat

Bought an Icom 7610 from Bob, K3AC. Had a great transaction, but then went sideways when inspecting the radio. See update below for more.

Welp, the radio ended up being in need of repair. The network interface was shot and the eeprom was damaged. Took 2 months of back and forth with Icom to narrow down what was happening only to come to the conclusion that it was going to need to be sent in for repairs and it was not going to be cheap to repair.

Seller was upset that I made a PayPal purchase protection claim. Certainly glad I had paid the Paypal fees on this transaction.

Re: the negative comment posted about me by N5EIL about his experience purchasing an Icom IC-7610. I sold him this radio that was my personal equipment, worked find for the 2 years I owned it with no problems, and was in mint cosmetic condition. I do not do remote operation so had no idea about the function of the ethernet port nor did I have any way to test it. He retained possession of the radio for over TWO MONTHS before he decided that he didn't want to pay for the repair. Fortunately for him, not me, he used PayPal with buyer's protection, and then submitted a claim under it as the radio was not as described. GIven the length of time he kept it, I informed him that to be fair, and that I had no knowledge of the ethernet port issue, I'd be willing to split the cost of the repair with him. He did not accept that so the only other aleternative I had from PayPal was to give him a FULL RETURN of his money he paid me two months prior. I told him that the radio was being sold in AS IS condition, no warranty, no return but because of the PayPal policy they likely would have given him the full refund and let him keep the radio, so I would have had a total loss. When I said I would accept the radio in return for full refund but needed to inspect it to make sure all items I supplied were included and the radio was in same excellent-mint condition (discounting the ethernet port issue, which I accepted his word on that). He then escalated it to a full claim to PayPal. I then submitted a full refund upon return of the radio to resolve this matter. I told him I was being extremely fair on this given the length of time he owned the radio, that remote operation was not something I ever did so had no knowledge about the defective ethernet port, and if remote operation was critical for him he should have tested that function immediately - not wait months to get back to me. He refused to have any discussion with me outside of PayPal.
So once I receive the radio back, PayPal will give him a FULL REFUND after over 2 months. SOmething no retail dealer would ever do- without even the normal 15-20% restocking fee. My advice - DO NOT SELL ANYTHING TO N5EIL and DO NOT ACCEPT PAYPAL IF YOU SELL HAM EQUIPMENT. There "Buyer Protection Policy" is good for SIX MONTHS - during which time the buyer can always say "item is not as described" and ask for a full refund which PayPal will likely provide.

See my comment in reply to N5EIL's negative post about me regarding his purchase of an IC-7610 2 months ago. I recommend you avoid any sale transactions with him based on my experience, outlined in my comment.

Bob, You accepted the transaction with PayPal fees knowing there is buyer protection in place when that occurs. I’m sorry you’re upset that PayPal has a buyer protection program that you knowingly agreed to. In the future, if you do not sell broken radios to people, there’s not much to worry about.

Neil -well, lets get a few things straight here, as you insist on posting lies about me and inaccuracies how this transaction went. First, this radio was working perfectly fine at the time I shipped it to you, which you admitted in your original posting ("transaction went smoothly, then (after 2 months" went "downhill"). If I had known about the bad ethernet port, which I didn't because I don't do remote operation and therefore never tested it, I wouldn't have sold it in that condition, or disclosed that in my ad. Second, if I had known PayPal's buyer protection plan lasted for SIX months, I would never have accepted payment using that method. I never had anyone make a claim using the PayPal buyer protection plan without having the courtesy of notifying me first to let me know what the problem was and allowing me a chance to resolve the issue that would be mutually acceptable to both parties. Instead, you decided to file a claim directly with Paypal after Icom told you the radio would need to be repaired, and asking for a full refund from PayPal. And now that I know about how long this protection policy lasts (even major ham dealers won't give full refunds after 30 days) , I would never accept payment as PayPal (merchandise) again. And even when I agreed to accept the radio back to give you a full refund you went ahead and tried to black ball me by posting negative comments about me. So you are someone I would never do business with again, and strongly advise anyone else to do the same.

Bob,

You did not want to refund the radio at all, and only did so because PayPal had already frozen the funds in your account giving you no option but to fulfill the purchase protection program terms.

So there it is people - Buy from Bob and you’ll get an AS-IS radio that he had no idea was in need of repair, but trust him it is in mint, excellent condition! And do not do any sort of buyer protection with Bob because if there’s one thing we’ve all learned here - Trust him! He’ll just trash you in the comments and try to leave you holding the loss!

73/88
Neil, N5EIL

Neil - that is not true. I was given two options by PayPal: 1)give you a partial refund or 2) give you a full refund. I told you that I'd be willing to split the cost of the repairs/ shipping with you given the length of time you had the radio and that I did not sell it as with a warranty, no questions asked refund, forgetting by that time about this whole deal after 2 months and the case report by PayPal took me completely by surprised since I never heard anything from you during the whole time you had the radio in your possession, was using it and assumed you were satisfied. What most buyers do if there is a problem is contact the seller, inform them of the problem and see if they can work it out. YOU DIDN"T DO THAT! You immediately submitted a warranty claim to PayPal. You mistakenly thought PayPal would just send you a full refund, like an insurance company would do, telling me "I Don't Expect You to Take Any Action". PayPal doesn't work like that as I told you - they will freeze the funds in my account, and I will have to give the refund to you out of my bank account - PayPal doesn't pay for their "buyer protection warranty" plan - they just bite the seller in the -ss by pulling it back from their bank account. You refused to accept my offer of splitting the cost of the repair and escalated it to a full case, which left me no choice but to agree to a full refund. And that is how all this really happened - you were not aware of what was going on between me and PayPal, mistakenly thinking I would not have any liability here, but that was wrong. I doubt most sellers of used ham equipment would agree to this, nor would any major dealers, and at least deducting a 15-20% 'restocking' fee. You on the other hand, will be getting a FULL REFUND, NO QUESTIONS ASKED AFTER OWNING AND USING THIS RADIO, GETTING AN OVER TWO MONTH FREE TRIAL, AND THEN SAYING TO PAYPAL, "IT HAS A DEFECTIVE ETHERNET PORT (minor issue IMO), SO I DON"T WANT IT AND I WANT A FULL REFUND AFTER USING IT FOR TWO MONTHS". That's outrageous and not likely any seller of used ham gear would have granted you that, if you had bought it outside of PayPal.

Neil - I have received the IC-7610 in return and contacted PayPal of my receipt. I have submitted a FULL REFUND of the amount you paid me for the radio over two months ago, as you requested. IF YOU CONTINUE TO POST NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT ME HERE I AM GOING TO ESCALATE THIS MATTER TO KA9FOX, Webmater, to notify him of this and to request that you be banned permanently from QTH.com for harassment and disparaging my reputation, which has been excellent on here up until my dealings with you. I am considering this matter closed at this point so any additional information you post about me will not be answered and I will escalate this as above.

Escalate this issue if you see fit.

I’m sorry you feel upset, Bob. I got what I wanted out of all of this. Now everyone can see how you are to deal with.

73
Neil

Neil - and people will see how you are to sell to. To summarize:
1. You received the radio I sold to you in excellent - mint working condition (just confirmed that in my shack upon receiving it back from you). I didn't test the LAN port but going to contact Icom Service to check on how to do this to confirm your accusation that it is defective.

2. You had the radio in your possessions, and presumably used it regularly for over TWO MONTHS.

3. During the time you had the radio you NEVER CONTACTED ME IN ANY WAY to let me know you were having a problem with it. I only found out when you filed a refund claim with PayPal under their outrageous Buyer's Protection Plan, which basically is a FULL REFUND, NO QUESTIONS ASKED for anything purchased as merchandise for SIX MONTHs

4. I tried to work this out with you by email but you refused to have any discussion of the matter with me outside of PayPal.

5. I offered to have you ship the radio to Icom for repair and split the total cost of the repairs/ shipping, etc. You rejected this and insisted on a full refund.

6. Most hams, including myself, sell used amateur equipment, outside of the factory warranty (I bought this radio used with no warranty). I did not offer any type of implied warranty, and sold the radio AS IS, NO RETURNS. I would only guarantee that the radio was in the same excellent working/cosmetic condition that it was at time I shipped it to you. And certainly would never offer a TWO MONTH, NO QUESTIONS ASKED FULL REFUND Trail period. I'm a private person, not a dealer. And even the major dealers would not give you a full refund after two months. They'd tell you to have it repaired under warranty.

So from the above, I think it's clear why I was not happy about issuing you an immediate full refund, especially given the length of time you owned and used the radio, may have had other defects develop under your ownership (eg. lightning strike, etc), parts removal, etc. You are very fortunate that you did use PayPal to get their warranty. After this experience I will never accept PayPal for any amateur gear I sell, that is for sure. It gives the buyer an outrageous SIX MONTH, NO QUESTIONS ASKED RETURN POLICY, and leaves the seller screwed.

End of discussion .

I like how you just skipped over the part where I said ‘it took two months of going back and forth with Icom to confirm the issues.’

For everyone else watching this thread - I started noticing that the radio would randomly lock up around day 3. I have a life, so I did not dedicate much time to this. Once the radio locked, I then started noticing on diversity rx that it would drop the volume randomly for the sub rx and not respond to volume knob input on that audio channel. When I plugged the ethernet port in it would get an IP address, and then after about 4-5 hours the network interface would randomly go offline. The most uptime I got on the radio was about 10 hours before it either would go offline from the network or locked up. Around week two I started to try to figure out what was wrong and gather data on the issues so I could have a meaningful conversation with Icom. The 7610 would also randomly lock up on shutdown about 1 in 7 times you’d go to power it off.

Ultimately Icom confirmed that there were issues, and it most likely took a lightning strike at some point. I’m currently in a severe drought, and there has not been lightning in the time I had the radio, so that ruled that out. In order to replace the defective parts, it would be a full board replacement as the eeprom was damaged causing it to ineffectively keep its 1s and 0s straight.

So the story of ‘it was in excellent, near mint condition’ is false. It clearly has issues that have been with it before I received it, and either Bob is lying, or Bob is not a very technical ham. Frankly, I did not want to deal with Bob because.. well.. just look at the responses here from him. You try dealing with someone that talks like this and just goes off on people. I’m disappointed that this thread has gone on so long, it is not in the ham spirit, and frankly I’m disappointed to share a hobby with you. On the upside, I’m going to outlive you old man, and one day that callsign will expire.


73
Neil

Neil - as I stated, this issue about the ethernet port took me completely by surprise as you allegedly "went back and forth with Icom for two months" until you eventually figured out the ethernet port was defective. You must not be a very technically oriented amateur to have to take TWO MONTHS to figure out you have a defective connector port in your radio? When you were having all this so-called issues with drop outs, etc, why didn't you contact me and let me know? I would have told you I never used the ethernet port so had no way to determine that and I bought the radio used. I never connect my radios to the internet and always disconnect them fully so never had a lightning strike damage in over 55 years in the hobby, running dozens of different rigs. So give me a break - I contacted Icom tech support and was immediately told the procedure they use to test the ethernet port on the 7610, which is straighforward. All you had to do was do that, and if it was found to be defective, notify me immediately, and I would have told you to send the radio to Icom for repair and full testing to insure it was operating per factory specs, and I'd pick up the charge. Instead you screwed around for two months, never informed me about any problem with the radio, and the next thing I knew, over two months after I shipped it to you, found out from PayPal that there was a problem, and instead of emailing me like the 'ham gentleman' you say you are (and I'm not!) you just filed a buyer protection claim with PayPal, saying, "I don't want to spend any money to get the radio repaired, I just want my money back, no questions asked, no interest in speaking to me like a gentleman directly by email, and only contentiously requiring me to reply through PayPal. As I stated (and as you said Icom mentioned to you what probably happened) - I never used the ethernet port as I don't run remote or ever connect a PC to my radios - ever. So how was I supposed to know the port was defective? Only when you filed the claim did I hear about this for the first time - OVER TWO MONTHS AFTER I SOLD IT TO YOU. I'm sure if the situation were reversed and you were the seller, you would not have been happy taking the radio back from me, giving me a full refund after over two months, etc. How do I know that you didn't leave the radio connected to an antenna, suffer a static discharge, or lightning strike over those 2+ months, or like some hams do - buy a radio, scarf parts out of it to repair their own radio, and then say, "the radio you sold me doesn't work - I want my money back". So - called "parts swappers' that you hear about. I don't know you from Adam. Again as I told you as soon as I found out about your claim- I was willing to help you get the radio repaired, which I think would have been the fair thing to do given the length of time you had it. Fortunately for you, PayPal required me to issue you a full refund, accepting your description that the radio was not as described and you would only accept a full refund. I have the radio back and have fully tested it on all modes, Receive and Transmit and it is THE SAME EXCELLENT WORKING AND COSMETIC CONDITION I SENT IT TO YOU! I am going to test the ethernet port as Icom Tech Support advised to confirm your findings and will post the results. I have sold many amateur radios, amplifiers and other equipment online on this site and others and I must say, this has been the worst experience I had with a buyer. I'm always willing to give a buyer the benefit of the doubt, but maintain that after such a long period of ownership, and the fact that I am a private party, sell equipment in 'as is' condition, with no returns, but willing to make good on the sale and resolve any problems found by the buyer. But I don't think waiting for TWO MONTHS, having plenty of opportunity to test the radio and find any defects, and then 'out of the blue', ask the seller for a full refund is very fair. Have a feeling most hams who sell used equipment on this site and others would feel the same way - and tell you to 'take a hike' - you bought it, owned it for over two months it's yours, period. I will no longer accept payment from buyer's using PayPal as this 'buyers protection plan' is outrageous and unfair to the seller. As I said, have a feeling if the situation were reversed, and you were the seller, you'd probably feel the same way.

Bob,

You’ve done more in this thread to destroy your own reputation than I ever did. Thanks for replying and keeping it at the top of the forum.

-Neil

As recommended by Icom Tech Support, the alleged defective IC-7610 ethernet (LAN) connector was tested according to their protocol. Radio was connected via CAT cable to Internet router directly. Testing showed proper lighting of I/O indicators, no evidence of any defect.
As stated previously, condition of this radio upon return from N5EIL summarized as follows:

1. Electrical condition: Rx (10/10); Tx (10/10), Ethernet (LAN), DVI (external monitor) connectors tested as functioning normally.
2. Cosmetic condition: 9-9.5/10, same condition as shipped to buyer

Conclusion: Unjustified return. Buyer filed claim with PayPal after two months of ownership due to radio 'not being as described', and stating a defective LAN port. Problems he experienced likely due to operator error, defective remote operation issues, not radio related.

Buyer was given a FULL REFUND OF HIS PURCHASE PRiCE as he refused to have it repaired by Icom after owning it for over 2 months.
Recommendation: 1.) Do not sell used electronic merchandise by accepting PayPal, which will require seller to provide a full, no questions asked refund policy to the buyer for a period of six months.
2) Do no have any sell any used amateur equipment to N5EIL. He likely will require you to accept PayPal so he can have the Buyer's Protection Plan and if he the least dissatisfied with what you sold him, he'll not contact you about the problem he encountered, if he even had a justifiable problem to begin with, and file a claim for a full refund from PayPal and as the seller, you'll be required by PayPal to take the item back and issue a full refund for up to six months - so you're screwed.

R. Needleman, K3AC

And as a final comment, if you do make the mistake of selling anything to N5EIL, and foolishly let him pay with PayPal (merchandise), when he becomes tired or dissatisfied in any way with what you sold him, he won't bother to contact you about it to let you know and give you a chance to have a fair resolution to both parties, but instead go right to PayPal, demanding his money back in full, saying the "item is not as described" so to invoke the PayPal Buyer Protection Plan and he can do it for up to SIX MONTHS after he's had possession of the item. Sellers beware - you've been warned.

K3AC

Bob, I get it, you didn’t read anything I said about troubleshooting this. Just like you didn’t read anything I said before you decided to go on your rants. Plug the lan port in and leave it on for a day. See what happens. You will be unable to ping it by the next day. The fact that you mixed ‘CAT cable’ and ‘LAN’ together leads me to believe you have zero clue what you’re talking about. The Icom 7610 has a CI-V port and a LAN port. Lan is TCP/IP and CI-V is serial. You do not “CAT cable directly to an internet router.”

This is kinda bizarre at this point that you just refuse to accept any responsibility for selling a broken radio. I do not understand what sorta scam you’re running or why you’re so entrenched on it, but it’s just sad. I’ve received multiple emails from people you have done business with over the years detailing how you scam them by splitting the repair fees on broken equipment. This is just sad at this point, Bob. My only motivation to keep bumping this thread with replies is that I hope it stays at the top of the forum for a while and people realize that it’s just not worth their time to engage.

-Neil

Neil - well, if you'd stop your lying rants about me maybe I'd stop responding to them! And you're 'sad'? That's humorous. You had full possession of the 7610 for over 2 months, never informed me of any problem during that time until you filed the claim with PayPal, and keep insinuating that I frequently sell defective radios, and then offering to split cost of repairs. The truth of the matter is I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT ANY DEFECTS OR PROLBEMS WITH THE LAN (ethernet) port on this radio, which I've stated ad nauseum. If you had informed me of that within a couple weeks of having it in your possession I would have worked with you to resolve the problem - either have you ship it to Icom for Repair, pick up the charges, or ship it back to me for a refund. But after two months, not knowing what had been going on while you were using it, I was not willing to do that. I was wlling to give you the benefit of the doubt of the defective LAN port, and split the cost of repairs - but you refused that.

As far as my testing -as stated, I did what the Icom Technician told me. The port you're saying is defective is called the "LAN Port", as labeled on rear panel of the 7610. IT accept a standard CAT cable with an RJ45 male plug). He told me to connect that type of cable (I used a CAT6) to connect the 7610 LAN port to my router and check the I/O lighting. Both lights were on, 1 steadily, 1 flashing, which indicates normal I/O operation. I do not have the software to test the IP address access. But as I said, I was was willing to give you benefit of the doubt that it was not working properly, and assist you with the repair. It has nothing to do with the CI/V port - and have no idea why you are raising that issue? Or maybe you're confused.

In any event, at this point your original accusations and diatribe against me have been going on for too long, but I feel it's necessary for me to respond to them because you continue to state lies about me, raising false issues of my previous sales transactions, which have uniformly been very positive. But of course you only mention anything negative you can find about me - but that is the type of lying ,vindictive person you evidently are, even after you got all your money back and I got thorougly screwed but that apparently has no effect on you continuing to state lies and falsehoods about me. I'm done. At this point, I don't care what you say. I'm done.

https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?thread ... er.834927/

18 days later Bob sold this radio to someone suggesting it was in perfect excellent condition. I’d be amazed if Icom repaired that radio in that short amount of time.