Communication via E-Mails

[kb9wzj]

Here you all sit on a computer reading threads, E-Mails and ads. However, when you want to drone on about what you have rather than what I am trying to sell, you call some one's home 20 times a day while they are at work. What is wrong with using E-Mail or messaging to converse directly about what it is for sale?
I find that anyone one who wants a "twisted pair" conversation only takes up my valuable time telling me how they became a Ham at the age of three months, pounding out code at 15 wpm before they could walk. What does this have to do with what I am trying to sell or buy?
When some one asks: " What is your bottom dollar?" or "What do you want for the lot?" WHY does it take a phone call to discuss it? What is wrong with simple quiet E-Mails ? LOTS of Hams tell me they make 50 wpm conversations on 20M while their XYL is asleep near them because they don't want to wake them up. I am the same way about phone calls, PLUS I have children in the house. I am LUCKY to get to use the phone with teenagers during the day, and in the evening I am busy, only when the house quiets down could I use the phone, BUT, their are sleeping people here. I would rather make a whole fifty dollar sale by E-Mail rather than a 3 hour conversation about what you have, who you are, what you have done, or what you are going to do. 3 hours for fifty bucks. I'd rather give my stuff to local guys for free, because they will just go: "okay good deal, thanks" and go on.
I wonder if these people do this at the grocery store?
So, does anyone else feel the same way I do about this? It just seems when a small simple sale because a phone phrenzy of four hours a night for a few bucks seems counter productive. We can send pictures immediately with E-Mails, there is no : "Well I misunderstood what you said" & " I don't remember saying that" "well it's in a black and white E-Mail" would be a good return, don't you think?

[KC0UKR]

What do I think?

I think you are a seller and not a buyer for one.
The seller can assume ZERO risk in a transaction online and thus can pass along anything he wants too with little to hold him accountable.
The buyer assumes ALL of the risk by sending funds usually in advance of receiving anything in return.

I for one am hardly eager to send funds without trying at a minimum to get to know the seller just a little bit.
I have been in sales for a long time and after a 5 minute phone call I can feel a lot more certain about the guy on the other end than I can from a flurry of emails in which they can remain anonymous.

My experience so far with the Ham's I have dealt with has been one of exageration and over stating the condition of almost everything.
Further I have found that those unwilling to have an open dialogue are more likely to overstate an items condition.
Bizarre statements like"still has plastic on the display" are a "red flag" that I have someone that is trying to sell me some junk. It is as though plastic will only stick to "New" unopened products or that simply claiming that the nplastic is on implies a"Pot of Gold" type find from a boy scout type seller.

I also find many hams will/can not send pictures for whatever reason and just do not have that capability. In this case I really need to talk to them as I can often sense a scam or misrepresentation through the conversation.
Often a seller will seem offended by the questions I will ask as though they are doing me some favor by even selling me their stuff.

I also do not sit at a computer all day long,but frequently I will see an item for sale that I kniow will have a lot of interested buyers lined up. Often the seller will respond in the order the buyers contact them, but if I can not reply via email I get shut out of the line.
This is another case where I will request the seller call me so we can get a deal set up before I would be passed over by someone sitting at a computer.
I think you can see that in this instance a call only speeds the deal up for everyone and is a small gesture the seller can nuse to "SELL: the item and demonstrate that he cares about providing a service.

It seems clear that you have had a recent long drawn out sale that did not go all that well but if you can not have a phone conversation and control its length maybe you need to look at that too. I have talked with many hams that are like you describe but can always cut a call shorter and end up learning something useful about the deal from it.

I for one will only deal with those who I have spoken to already and I suggest that if you do not have the time to do this that you maybe should not be selling.

If any of this seems like too much trouble or effort then I certainly will not buy from you.

It is almost as though you want to make a sale without actually doing any selling. As though the mere mention of an item being available should send the cash pouring in.

I challenge you to find a selling site anywhere where it is reccommended that there be "LESS" communication instead of more!?!?!?!?

Remember it takes two to make a deal but only one to screw one up.

Ed Harris
KC0UKR[/i]

[W8VVE]

Great post Ed. I agree with everything you said. I may deal via email only on a small dollar item...but putting out a few hundred bucks or more requires a phone chat. If a person chooses not to accept phone calls...then just say in the listing "no phone calls" instead of something like "don"t waste my time with phone calls" or "only interested calls". When I list something...I want EVERYONE to respond....the more the better...you never know who is going to buy. Selling is fun...don't make it work by putting restrictions everywhere.
Sam W8VVE

[kb9wzj]

Nine times out of ten, a five minute phone call isn't possible with a windy Ham. I have received 50 calls on one single item that was described 100% in the ad, I sent pictures and re answered questions that were already mentioned in the ad. Still a 45 minute phone conversation and it was just a "tire kicker". Selling is not fun, it's a necessary evil.
My favorite thing is to list something by model #, and then some dimbulb asks if it's something else.
73 all , I rest my case.

[KC0UKR]

Well that was some well reasoned and insight filled response.
You asked what we think and I told you what I think.

You ignore each point that I made and re-affirmed your stance that selling is just too much trouble for you to follow through with?

Then you stereotype hams as tire kickers who are out to waste your time.

You have made my point better than I ever could have.
If a seller can not even try to meet my concerns then I move on and the unwillingness to communicate directly is a sign that the seller is trying to avoid an honest transaction to me.

I think my concerns are each legitimate but instead of offering any insight here you simply "rest your case"?

Like I said try putting on the buyers hat and see if you feel the same way.

It seems like plain arrogance to me.

Give me a break.

[kb9wzj]

Do you all go in the grocery store and ask what's inside a box of cereal before you buy it? (like the clerk has a clue) I clearly state and provide pictures of what I am selling.
I am not stereo typing all Hams, just the ones that ask silly questions about what I am selling, when it is clearly written in text what it is, and what I want for it. If it is in black and white, with pictures well described, why ask redundant questions?
YOU are missing the point. So many guys want to chat on the phone "to get to know me", do you all do that with your food when you go out to a restaurant? When a sale becomes a sale, and it becomes serious or a done deal, then a phone call to confirm would be okay, but I don't see what good ever came out of a fifty dollar item and a three hour phone call that is totally off base about what I am selling. Too many call to brag about their ticket, towers, what they got for free from another Ham. Keep it simple. Make the sale or move on.
Some one can lie to you looking you right in the face, what makes you think a phone call will get straight answers? People lie to your face everyday, why just look at the news anchor/media, car salespersons, and possibly your own children. Oh and don't forget "Speak up Mr. Presidents, we didn't hear you."
" I am not a crook"
So go on and ramble away, talk bad about my deceased mother if you want, just because you feel safe in a "twisted pair" conversation. I guess you can learn a lot from a 3 hr conversation where you are bragging, huh?
To some it up once and for all, I have time for a sale. I don't have time for a braggart.
Speaking of which, look at the time.

[KC0UKR]

First of all,did I ever mention your mother in any way? Get a grip.

Now let me see if I understand you here.....You are comparing buying cereal or a meal at a brick and mortar establishment where I can complain and get compensation if I need to with buying used Ham junk over the internet from someone I don't know who happens to own a computer?

NO ONE TRUSTS YOU UNTIL YOU EARN THE TRUST.
And it is only common sense that we try to find a safe place to send our money no matter how small the amount.

You just keep implying that we should assume someone is trustworthy without doing any small amount of work to help insure this for ourselves. And if this work involves your helping to satisfy my questions you are not willing to be any part of it if you don't think it makes sense?

I can certainly tell when talking to someone if I get a positive or negative feeling within a few minutes.
I also can not picture you ever having a three hour conversation with anyone no matter what it is about.

I will concede this point to you-You are right,I do not need to make a phone call to YOU to know I would not trust you,any deal I would consider is just me asking to be let down.

I also did a quick search of items you were selling and did not see a single picture provided to help establish your beyond question or comment credibility.

It would be purely irresponsible to try to deal with someone so outwardly hostile and evasive.

I am especially confused by your asking for other opinions here as you seem to only want to argue without even considering other points of view.
I understand clearly what you are saying here and I am saying go try to convince someone after reasoning things out a little more,your position is weak and your argument is even weaker.

[N4HN]

Darin doesn't answer his QSL's even after emails from him assuring I would get one - that should tell you about his character. N4HN ex KT4HN

[K4ICL]

What is wrong with just saying "NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE" and/or "PLEASE EMAIL ALL RESPONSES" in your ad? Easy to do and solves the problem.

Cheers,

K4ICL

[emory]

No Talk, No Sale
I will remember this Call next time i need something. kb9wzj

[KC0UKR]

No Talk, No Sale
I will remember this Call next time i need something. kb9wzj

What an absolutely brilliant respoonse!

Your argument holds no water and you have posted this little nugget from a different identity and this is what we get?

This is exactly why actual communications is so crucial to avoid problems later.

[kb9wzj]

Darin doesn't answer his QSL's even after emails from him assuring I would get one - that should tell you about his character. N4HN ex KT4HN

I thought we cleared this matter up. I told you to simply work some one else in this grid, and quit whining.

[kb9wzj]

No Talk, No Sale
I will remember this Call next time i need something. kb9wzj

Implying or ASSuming this is my post is simply rediculous.

[N8PQB]

I simply keep two lists of calls, those that I will deal with, and those that I won't. Thanks to this thread, I have been able to add to both lists.

Tom, N8PQB

[N8PQB]

One further thought.......
Here in the Greater Dayton, Ohio area we have the fortune of a couple of good dealers that take most anything on trade for a reasonable value. (I didn't say fair, as it is always more fair to the dealer)
When I am looking for a piece of used equipment I first search my local dealers. If they have what I am looking for, in most cases they are cheaper than anyone posting on the internet, and it comes with a limited warranty and has been checked out to make sure everything works, often times by their repair guys.. This makes me feel better about buying something used.
For those that may be interested check out:
www.universal-radio.com
www.randl.com
Both have a fair selection of used and of course, new equipment.

73,
Tom, N8PQB

[n7anl]

> You did ask what other hams thought in response to your original post.

> KC0UKR, Ed said, over the course of a couple replies to you:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

~ What do I think? I think you are a seller and not a buyer for one.

~ I for one am hardly eager to send funds without trying at a minimum to get to know the seller just a little bit. I have been in sales for a long time and after a 5 minute phone call I can feel a lot more certain about the guy on the other end than I can from a flurry of emails in which they can remain anonymous.

~ I also find many hams will/can not send pictures for whatever reason and just do not have that capability. In this case I really need to talk to them as I can often sense a scam or misrepresentation through the conversation.

~ Often the seller will respond in the order the buyers contact them, but if I can not reply via email I get shut out of the line. [implying the seller may wait to get home many hours later to check their emails, rather than accept a call right now which might (or might not) get through while this potential buyer IS available].

~ I for one will only deal with those who I have spoken to already and I suggest that if you do not have the time to do this that you maybe should not be selling.

~ Well that was some well reasoned and insight filled response. You asked what we think and I told you what I think. You ignore each point that I made and re-affirmed your stance that selling is just too much trouble for you to follow through with? Then you stereotype hams as tire kickers who are out to waste your time.

~ I think my concerns are each legitimate but instead of offering any insight here you simply "rest your case"? It seems like plain arrogance to me.

~ I am especially confused by your asking for other opinions here as you seem to only want to argue without even considering other points of view. I understand clearly what you are saying here and I am saying go try to convince someone after reasoning things out a little more,your position is weak and your argument is even weaker.


==============================

# So I have to comment that I agree with EVERY point Ed makes above. I just could not have put it any better.

KB9WZJ -- you need to sit down and think over some of this stuff. Your arrogance has reached a level of a personality disorder -- OR MAYBE you are just a guy who has allocated so little time in his life, having a family and job and all that, that you no longer have time to address the "other people" out there.

Here's the thing Ed is saying, and most of us here are in TOTAL agreement with him on.

You want our respect and our TRUST, yet you don't seem to care enough to allow us the "little 5-10 minute phone call we need" -- to trust YOU ?

The silent email thing is nice, and IF your buyer is confortable with that, then cool, maybe that's all you need to make it all work out for both of you. BUT if they want a brief phone call (and you can ask that of your callers, like maybe 10 minutes max), then you ought to accept the obligation. AND if your house is in QUIET mode by that time, maybe you should call them. Or take their number to work in the morning and call them on a break.

It's up to YOU to convey trust. Some people will give you theirs with some email, some will want a 5-10 minute phone call -- because they can TELL A LOT about you in a few minutes. And whether they can trust you (even if it isn't a perfect trust, THEY feel a lot better with it. I DO TOO.)

And hey, don't try to make an analogy out of that - "do you all do that with your food when you go out to a restaurant?" What a bunch of baloney. Ed even answered you perfectly on that comment. In the restaurant, you ARE face-to-face with the waitress and chef, and you can get them to make-it-right on the spot. But in the long distance sale of ham gear, AND all of us now being in the sickening EBAY-attitude world, you ought to get the points he & we are making...

Take or make the phone call, tell the caller you have only 5-10 minutes max, and then do your best to help them trust you and find out what they need to know. You'll just have to live with those talkative hams out there, and tell them you only have a few minutes to talk, while trying to juggle your time within your and the family's limits too. If email works for them for the most part, that's all fine too.

I've had the same experience as you, the ham who wants to jabber on (even on my nickel) about everything ham radio and what he likes and some of his experiences. Just kindly and smoothly divert him back to the subject at hand -- your item for sale. Keep the focus even if he doesn't do so well at that. Don't be rude and don't get yourself stressed out over it. Just be polite & smooth, and hold the focus and it will happen.

--------
SOMETHING I do in my ads -- I don't list my number.
BUT I do say in that phone number slot, "phone number on request".
This way, IF they feel the need to talk with me for a few minutes, I give them the opportunity AND I set the hours they can call within in my time zone. And if it is complicated for my timing, then I also offer to call them if they will give me their number too.
--------

Like others said and I too am saying, allow yourself to be open to the brief phne call, or expect to lose a LOT of sales to perfectly decent people with money in their hand. Some hams "are" talkers after all. And one of these days when you retire and your children leave the nest, you'll start to slow down a bit and enjoy just talking with people again.

It's one reason ham radios come with a microphone.
And telephones too.

That said, good luck with squeezing some relaxation into your busy schedule.

[Mike C.]

KCOUKR!! I love you!!! You stated"My experience so far with the Ham's I have dealt with has been one of exageration and over stating the condition of almost everything."I couldn't agree more.I just had a nasty confrontation about some feedback I left for an obviously very beloved Ham who did just that!!We did all our transacting by e-mail.The first time I asked him about the condition of the item he stated"It is good to go".However ,I became suspicious about his true knowledge of the item.I asked more specific questions,and surprise! it didn't work.He admitted that he got the rig at an estate sale and new nothing about how to operate it.I went ahead and bought the item as a parts unit by mutual agreement.However,I felt it was necessary to mention this little deception in a feedback and the seller really got pissed.This means absolutely nothing,for within a couple of days at the most,the feedback was removed without my knowledge!!I e-mailed KA9FOX and asked for an explanation and was completely ignored.But then again,according to some statement I read on this site,us non-hams are by nature less honest than license holders.I asked KA9FOX for an explanation for that statement as well in the e-mail to him.
By the way.I prefer to send e-mails to sellers instead of using the phone.That way you can keep all the e-mails as proof as what transpired.Recording phone calls without a beeper and the person's knowledge is illegal.I told the aggravated seller that I had the e-mails to prove what I was saying but he kept clouding the issue by saying I was angry about the equipment not working,which never was the point.I know this is long winded,but I"M still pissed about the feedback disappearing.Thanx.

[n7anl]

KCOUKR!! I love you!!! "

REPLY: Mike's comments have been well received, and this thread's Primary initiator pretty well got shot full of holes.

---
You stated "My experience so far with the Ham's I have dealt with has been one of exageration and over stating the condition of almost everything."I couldn't agree more."

REPLY: Guess it depends on the hams you have dealt with. People ARE different, VERY different. I don't find the same perspective with "all" the hams I deal with, but sure, a few do as you say, over-state the condition. But many are very fair about it. Still I agree with your overall point.

---
"I just had a nasty confrontation about some feedback I left for an obviously very beloved Ham who did just that!! We did all our transacting by e-mail. The first time I asked him about the condition of the item he stated"It is good to go". However ,I became suspicious about his true knowledge of the item. I asked more specific questions,and surprise! it didn't work. He admitted that he got the rig at an estate sale and new nothing about how to operate it."

REPLY: There are some hams & non-hams out there who do this. Its a disappointment to the broader ham community. When I refer to the greater ham community, I am looking at the generally honest and competent amongst us, and NOT those who think this is just another " ebay-I-can-scam-you " site, AND NOT THOSE who have a " I-dont-have-any-ability-or knowledge-or-willingness-to-learn-anthing " type people out there. Ham radio is about learning a set of skills and abilities which are a technical but rewarding challenge to ourselves. Everyone does so at their own level, and that should be respected. But for those who do nothing and then try to BS your way passed us, sorry, it's not happenin... I revert back to the "ebay seller mentality " that afflicts some sellers on here. Try at least to know something about what you have listed, and be honest, and you will go far here.

---
"I went ahead and bought the item as a parts unit by mutual agreement. However,I felt it was necessary to mention this little deception in a feedback and the seller really got pissed.

REPLY: Good idea in the purchase as a "parts rig".
I also might have done the same in mentioning it on the QTH board as you did, if I felt like the person mistreated me.

---
"This means absolutely nothing,for within a couple of days at the most,the feedback was removed without my knowledge!!I e-mailed KA9FOX and asked for an explanation and was completely ignored."

REPLY: This is an issue with Scott and the monitors. Perhaps you used an unreasonable form of complaint, I dont know, but take it up with him, again. He has ALWAYS answered every one of my letters.

---
"But then again,according to some statement I read on this site,us non-hams are by nature less honest than license holders. I asked KA9FOX for an explanation for that statement as well in the e-mail to him."

REPLY: Being a HAM, at least one who has some accomplishment and has reached a level, or is striving to reach a level, "above" the most basic ham level today, TAKES SOME WORK. It registers as a value to those who have been through the same efforts. If you are not a ham, that's fine of course, but do notice, if you try it and become a ham, especially "above the lowest level", you will find more acceptance by hams. Just one of those things I guess.

I think Scott has simply found that "quite a few" NON-HAMS who post items on here, have been less than honorable sellers. It doesn't mean you are one of those. And the other issue sometimes arises when non-hams do not list much info in their ads to prove who & where they are, which is distrustful. A ham's callsign puts his/her ID on the table in front of you. Usually that helps a little in the "trust a seller" department.

---
"By the way.I prefer to send e-mails to sellers instead of using the phone. That way you can keep all the e-mails as proof as what transpired. Recording phone calls without a beeper and the person's knowledge is illegal.I told the aggravated seller that I had the e-mails to prove what I was saying but he kept clouding the issue by saying I was angry about the equipment not working,which never was the point."

REPLY: You make a good point, having the emails for proof. But what you dont have that was extensively addressed in other writer's above comments, is finding a way to establish TRUST. Often a phone call is best for that. You can always review your phone call in another email and get him/her to reply to it, thus acknowledging your call's discussion.

---
"I know this is long winded,but I"M still pissed about the feedback disappearing.Thanx.

REPLY: Understandable, but talk to Scott. Ive had a few of my posts deleted and when I asked why "politely", he responded.

[N8ERM]

When I buy from or sell to a person I require a phone number and a signature when delivered. I lost one rig that was a high value item because it sat on the porch, $950.00 gone. The phone number works if a delivery problem arises. If I buy and have a problem the question gets ask and the problem is solved. I buy and sell a lot because I am never satisfied. It works for me. Remember to play nice and good trading to all.

I used the phone number method today when a package was delivered without a signature. The person was out of town and called a neighbor to pick up the parcel Thanks Jim N8ECI.


Received a phone call last week from an angry buyer. The item arrived in perfect condition. His problem is I used too much material to pack the gear. He said he would like to put all the extra crap you know here. Not his true words but you can imagine. I payed the shipping and should be able to pack the gear my way????

Now regarding Dr. Bruce Felder, K3BF, I contemplated buying an item from Bruce a few years ago. He gave me his phone number and I called. He was patient and after the first conversation I decided that I would not buy the item. It was fine with him and he thanked me for returning the call as I promised.

Bottom line is be fair. If you don't feel comfortable do not do the deal. Thank you Scott for a great ham fair site to buy, sell and trade on.

73, Terry N8ERM